Ellen: There is also a necessity for visitors to get involved. The usual art performance spares people from becoming part of the work, they are either allowed to remain bystanders and observe what the performer is doing. Or, the audience is assigned a predetermined role; everybody is supposed to put oneself in a particular place or to act out specific instructions. With the Bee Chapel HafenCity, it was different. You just couldn’t experience the project if you didn’t get involved. And nobody told you what to do or how to feel.
terence: the project was also difficult for me, because in an art gallery, there are all these rules and specifications that people expect from the artist. whatever the performance, everybody’s behavior is under control. but here, we jumped into it without knowing what we were doing. we set a basic framework¬¬—like dividing the space into a public and a private section, setting opening hours for the chapel, or me making tea for people. but the project itself was as unclear to us as it was for anybody passing by. 👁 actually just realize 👁 never made a single cup of tea.
Ellen: Why not?
terence: 👁 don't know. 👁 think for the first few weeks, we were so busy setting things up and then people were coming and talking and 👁 was so engaged in the conversations that 👁 forgot. or maybe it wasn’t necessary. the tea was supposed to be the conversation starter, but 👁 didn't anticipate that the bee chapel would do this all already. tea making could even have been distracting.
Ellen: True. It would have been like a set of tasks: First, go to the bee chapel and then, drink a tea and then, talk to the artist.
terence: this is maybe what 👁 was trying to describe as “theatrical” earlier. when 👁 presented the bee chapel in an art context, 👁 wood still have to explain what the project is, how visitors are supposed to “use” it. but out there on the river in hafencity it was the best thing to just smile and say: “hello, are you here to visit the honeybees?” and people would simply say, “ja”.
Ellen: How many times did you say this sentence over the last month?
terence: many, many, many times. but if you think about it, it couldn't have been easier. because 👁 didn't start explicating, “this is the bee chapel, it is for humans and bees”, and so on and so forth. the whole point was not for me to explain it. the piece wasn’t describable on instagram either, because it wasn't just a visual. it wasn't just a sound, or just about smell and taste; it was using all the senses at once too escape time, escape our limited body, which is what art and life are trying to get at. that’s why not speaking german was never really a barrier, because the experience was happening beyond the realm of language.
Ellen: Maybe it even helped? There was an estrangement, a space between the languages that slowed things down.
terence: (smiles) yes, ironically, it actually did help, because I spoke less than usual. this erased the idea of the artist and made more space for visitors, so that the audience itself became the actor. the key thing was to put them in the same position as the artist.
Ellen: True. But I would describe the situation a bit differently. The typical visitors in art galleries know how they are expected to behave, and this knowledge keeps their fear of the unknown under control. Here, the rules were not clear, so there could have been a lot of fear. So your presence was decisive at this point: You took the fear away from us and made everybody more open and more perceptive. As a visitor, I was not really turning into an artist myself, but somehow I became part of the work and I could feel the possibility of art. You were still the core of the setting, mediating the situation. So in this sense, you were not equal; you made everything possible. It needs a clear desire to create an experience for strangers.
terence: 👁 get that. and 👁 see that it's contradictory when 👁 say that 👁 want to erase myself as the artist, but then I'm completely there as the integral part of the piece at the same time. 👁 want to erase myself, but 👁'm also a part of it.
Ellen: What totally I understand is that you don't want to be a center stage genius. You want to blend with the environment, become a natural part of it.
terence: 👁 actually joked around with garrick (my boyfriend) how easy it would have been to turn the project into a cult-like thing. if 👁 had really wanted to employ my charm, it would have been possible to seduce visitors. but seduction and the pleasure of senses was what 👁 hoped too transcend. beuys also had to deal with students or audience turning into dedicated devotees, but that was never his aim. he wanted to enable people, not make them compliant.
Ellen: Did you feel tempted though?
terence: definitely, there was a temptation. admiration is a very powerful sentiment. but probably there is no easy way to answer this issue. how did you experience the dynamics?
Ellen: I think you acted very intuitively, you didn’t consciously decide how to address people. Rather, you naturally didn’t act as a “truth-teller”, my impression was that your main concern was to stimulate the visitors’ energy, to loosen them up.
terence: yes, 👁 think that´s right. 👁
actually wasn't thinking whether 👁 was being too charming or overtaken by my childish desires. 👁 would say that for the most part 👁 wasn't really thinking, 👁 was just in the moment, simply beeing. whoever came, it was always different. cute hunk, grandmas, tourists, random strangers, 👁 just dived in.